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The Doors of Perception 620m

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  • #31
    I may have to moderate myself in a moment, but here goes:

    So now there's a route on Mt. Lodder that has had at least five ascents this season that I know of. I highly doubt if more than five parties have ever even climbed on the stone where the route is in any single season before. There are a 1000 other faces for people to climb if they want to pound pins and mess about with that program. There are other multi-pitch bolted routes in the area; there is nothing new happening on Lodder beyond the fact that there is now what sounds like a pretty entertaining outing to do up there. Other people may well have climbed most of the same line as an obscure rock route back in the day; come to think of it, my dad and I wandered around somewhere in that area when I was young... I think a lot of the energy on here comes from the initial, "It couldn't have been done as a rock route, too hard, had to be a new route 'cause, well, it's too hard for others" comments from Pat. He was wrong about that obviously, and that lack of respect for the climbing and gear talents of others is maybe what is pissing some people off more than the actual route. Or maybe not, but the discussion seems to be bigger than normal and less about the route than the attitude.

    I respect climbs done well whether they were bolted, done using only nuts, using pins and bolts, or done naked under a full moon--if they are good routes in the sum of the experience. "Doors" may or may not be a good route, but most people who have climbed it seem to think it's worth doing, warts and all. So chopping it would be a bad idea in my mind, or at least a total waste of energy given the vast amount of climbing to be done around here. People do seem to be having a good time on it, downrating it, etc., all the usual stuff that a "popular" route engenders. Let it be, or at least wait a year or two for the opinions to settle out a bit more than they have before doing something that never works out all that well for the stone (chopping). Maybe the energy of this discussion will prompt a different style on multi-pitch routes in the front range in the future; that's a good outcome, but leaving ugly holes, bent-over bolts and all the other scars that go with chopping routes is, at least right now, not the right solution in my mind.

    I'm standing by to moderate myself.

    WG

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    • #32
      Karel, I agree with you.

      I'm looking forward to getting on this route and don't climb mixed a lot,...yet. The idea of not worrying about gear while I test myself on a longish mixed line sounds great to me. I'm not afraid of gear while mixed climbing. I do lead shorter mixed now on gear. I just want to focus on the mixed climbing over a long distance and not about where the gear line will go. This area is often where people cut their teeth on long mixed routes anyway. This route fits into the theme of the bowl. I vote to keep the bolts Pat.
      Brian Merry[br]Banff, AB[br]www.brianmerry.ca[br]brian@bmerryphotography.com[br]403-763-1114[br]

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      • #33
        I too am a purely recreationl climber and probably am somewhat less than mediocre (on a good day). Having said that I would still like to throw my vote into leaving the route as is even though I likely will not get a chance to try it.

        I still think there are many circumstances where bolts are far less obtrusive, and far more useful, than some of the other options...tons of tat hanging off of every thing in sight, for example (I sort of tried to make that point earlier).

        In any case I think Patrick's intentions were good and he obviously put in a lot of work. Why not give the route a chance in it's current state and see what happens to opinions sometime down the road.

        regards,

        Ken Cox

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        • #34
          Climbed the first six or so pitches of this rig today.

          I think there's a couple of points worth noting in regards to the ongoing debate. Firstly, this is NOT a sport climb, there are bolts here and there and bolted belays throughout but there are still large sections of climbing that are protected naturally. Secondly, due to the slabby nature of the route both the climbing and the protection can be challenging when the route is snow covered and while this may not be the case in the summer, I don't think this route is on many folks summer tick list.

          That said, I don't like seeing the vision and boldness of a first ascensionist marred by the addition of bolts. However, I also like my ankles in tact and enjoyed clipping the first few bolts above the belay ledge on pitch 5 or 6 knowing that if I blew it I wouldn't be decking.

          My 2 cents.

          DW

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          • #35
            Wonderfully lively posts. Against my better judgment, I?ll wade into this?I wholeheartedly agree with our esteemed moderator?s stance ? leave the route as is, no sense in jumping the gun now.

            Really, if Bow Valley climbers want to pull the ethical flag out they might be better off waving at some of the things that are going on elsewhere in the range. For example take a gander at this page http://www.dtcca.ca/ferrata.htm if you have an aversion to bolts in the alpine. Don?t mean to highjack the thread, only pointing out some incongruities in the shades of grey ?you know, between the black and the white of the pro and con bolting camps.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by iceadmin
              Maybe the energy of this discussion will prompt a different style on multi-pitch routes in the front range in the future; that's a good outcome [...]
              One can hope that anyone developing and changing the nature of routes on alpine stone in the future will attempt to create routes that take the least from the mountain, respect tradition and consider future generations of climbers. However, for this to really take place we need to come together again as a community (like it was rumoured to have happened in the 80's) and mentor strong, young climbers on all aspects of mountain culture, not just coach and encourage strength. In my mind, TDOP could have been a good route that would have received many repeats with maybe 2 protection bolts and a belay here and there, though none were strictly required for a safe ascent... and it may not have generated this shit storm. Seems to me that simply publishing a topo begs repeats... but the sheer number of bolts on a route that requires a rack on a route that had obviously been climbed before (at least in part, evidenced by the fixed pins) is what likely irked people who know better. This route should stand as a lesson to future developers on what not to do.


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